In this edition of PM Teatime, I had the pleasure of speaking with Victoria who is a PM at Amazon! Victoria is passionate about education and her work primarily consists of developing products within the Educational Technology (EdTech) space.

In this interview, I learn more about how Victoria transitioned into PM, and how PM is different when working on EdTech products. We also touched on her tips for language learning as she is fluent in an impressive 6 languages!

Some of the interview highlights include:

• When looking for a PM role, it’s better to apply for 10 roles that are a really good fit for you and then network with people within those companies versus just applying for everything.
• Building up audiences or communities from scratch on sites such as LinkedIn is a great skill that you can put on your resume.
• When transitioning into PM, try to build your own product from scratch to gain skills, this could be anything from a no-code application to starting your own blog.

Read our full conversation below 👇🏼

---

Hassiba: Hi Victoria, I’m so glad to be speaking with you today! Let’s start with how you discovered product management as a field and what made you want to transition into it?

Victoria: Yeah, for sure! So for me, this is very interesting because I initially was aiming for a diplomatic career. I got my degree in international relations, I learned a lot of languages and I lived abroad because I thought this was the career I wanted to go into. However, when I actually got the opportunity to work in the field, I felt like it wasn’t for me and it just didn’t feel right. There were a lot of rules and regulations and I didn’t feel like there was much space for me to be creative and have a really large impact.

So then I felt the need to try and transition into something else, and I focussed on education as I am a big learner myself and I have always loved taking part in volunteer projects too. I found an opportunity to intern at a nonprofit in Washington DC and the focus of the work was on educating young entrepreneurs – and by young I mean some were college students or some of them were even 10 years old – so really young people who wanted to start their own business or volunteer projects. This non-profit would give them resources, educate them and provide funding to help make their ideas a reality, and I was working there in a fellowship position. After that, I moved to work for an education technology company where I met a lot of people who create amazing educational products from virtual reality for corporate training, to toys that teach kids how to speak or how to story tell. So I was really inspired by all of the people that I met and I decided that I wanted to be the person who creates educational products myself. So from there, I worked at a couple of different companies within e-learning and marketing to build up my skills and then managed to land a role as a PM at Amazon and I’m currently developing and upscaling learning and enablement products for employees!

Hassiba: Amazing! Your journey is quite different from the ones I have heard before, and it sounds like you have always really had a passion for education! So what is it like being a PM at Amazon?

Victoria: I think it really depends on the team that you’re with, and also the type of role because they’re all kinds of PM roles – especially now because the industry is evolving, you can find roles specifically as like a Communications PM or a Data PM. So those for example are very different roles and also the kind of people you would work with would be very different too. But one thing is similar, and that is that you are always the voice of the customer, and you are using customer feedback to improve and drive business value. So this is something very similar across all product roles. Right now at Amazon, I am loving the experience so far – I am getting to use and improve my strategy and planning skills, I’m thinking about customer development opportunities and identification, and all of this is whilst I am building something from scratch. So Amazon has been a great environment for me to foster these skills and develop them.

Hassiba: How is EdTech product development different? What are some of the main differences and nuances when working in this area as opposed to other product areas?

Victoria: Yeah that’s an interesting question! So in general because you’re dealing with learning, you need to understand how people learn, and usually when you are developing EdTech products you have a learning experience designer working with you. But in general, you need to understand the learning objectives, what you want people to do, and what kind of behaviours you want to change. You also need to consider what type of format to use and what is going to be most effective for your product and the type of behaviour change you want to encourage – there is so much more, but obviously I am also still learning about this! But I think a very important thing to also think about is the reputation of your products – sometimes there can be a mismatch within adult learning especially, between what the course says it will teach you and then what you are able to do after graduation. So it is crucial that your product delivers on the purpose it is claiming to deliver for users.

Hassiba: It seems like there are a lot of different dimensions to developing educational products which you may not think about! Speaking of learning – I wanted to ask you about what you think are the best resources and methods for someone who wants to transition into PM to help them upskill?

Victoria: So, I think I would really start with analysing the market first and seeing what kind of PM you want to be because as I said before, there are so many different roles. For me, that was pretty straightforward because I had experience in one industry and I knew that my preferable product domain would be adult learning and so I think this was specific enough. So if you can identify a domain that you are interested in or have maybe had some previous work experience in then I think that really helps.

I would say really play to your strengths, apply to roles where you do have a competitive advantage over other candidates, and where you really are a strong fit.

Look for those roles that are best suited for you, and then I think it’s better to apply for 10 roles that are a really good fit for you and then network with people within those companies versus just applying for everything because you’re not doing anybody any favors when you’re not particularly excited about the role and then also not getting a lot of replies. Getting a very low response rate, will really damage your self-esteem and this is not what you want when you’re looking for a job. So I would say really play to your strengths, apply to roles where you do have a competitive advantage over other candidates, and where you really are a strong fit. This will require a lot of research skills in the beginning but it is worth it in my opinion. 

I also followed a lot of LinkedIn PM content creators who really know their stuff, and I know that they’re developing education products and have courses too. I also watched a lot of YouTube videos about how people transitioned into PM, and I signed up for a Product School boot camp which I saw a lot about online – they had a very structured approach to PM and it did really help. It was a little bit pricey, but I’m sure there are other courses which are possibly cheaper or free. I think if you do go down the boot camp route then just ensure that you really utilise the resources they offer, be engaged within the communities, and accept any mentorship opportunities offered too!

A good thing to do is actually try to develop your own real product- either by teaming up with classmates or doing it individually. It could be a very simple product.

You also can’t expect to graduate from boot camps and have a job lined up automatically, you need to make sure that you’re continually networking with people from different companies, improving your resume, and working on side projects that develop your skills. A good thing to do is actually try to develop your own real product- either by teaming up with classmates or doing it individually. It could be a very simple product, or it could even be a blog like what you’re doing now, right? If you are able to prove through the experience that you increased traffic by doing XYZ or implementing changes based on feedback that caused improvement then this could also be so beneficial to your resume experience. As well as that, it could be a very simple no-code app that people can use, which you can then get feedback from and iterate – you just need to show that you can create something from scratch! So that’s what I would suggest as to how to optimise your chances of getting an interview, once you have the interview there are a ton of resources from LinkedIn creators, YouTube, etc.

Hassiba: I think that’s a really interesting point about building a product, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be a ‘product’. Like you said, it could be like a hobby, like a blog or a podcast, just anything that you’re having to be that person that’s leading it and making the decisions. 

In relation to networking, what do you think are the most effective forms of networking to get the most impactful results, and how important do you think personal branding is with regard to networking?

Victoria: Yeah, it’s a great question. So when I started networking on LinkedIn, I reached out to people at specific companies I wanted to work at and I would be fairly direct in saying my question upfront. I think being more direct and to the point got me a higher response rate, however, I think it’s important to remember that the response rate is going to be low in general because people are just busy and that’s okay. But you need to make sure that you’re networking consistently, adding people to your network, and then subsequently building those connections. For example, if I wanted to have 10 conversations I would figure out that I probably need to send out X number of messages factoring in the response rate. And then for me, my intent was never just to get a referral but I really just genuinely wanted to meet and speak with people and learn from their journey. And even though you may not be able to offer any value to them just yet, I made sure to message all the people I spoke to along my journey and specified that if they need any support with anything then I am always happy to help.

You really can create content on anything, and if you find your niche then you are able to write and create content that can really resonate with people.

So I think the core of it is just consistency and coming in with an intention of building relationships and even meaningful friendships. And on the note about personal branding – I think it’s absolutely important! You really can create content on anything, and if you find your niche then you are able to write and create content that can really resonate with people. I started to pay a lot of attention to what kind of questions people were asking me and tried to understand what the common pain points were amongst my audience. So I shifted my focus towards talking more about my experience and journey in product management, and this seems to have really resonated with people. I think doing this is really helpful because firstly writing is a very important skill – it’s a way to introduce people to how you think and how you communicate. Also, if you can build an audience on LinkedIn then you can actually include this as an experience on your resume because not everybody can do that, as it involves strategy, consistent planning, and understanding what your audience needs. So if you can write content on LinkedIn you will be more visible to people and also expose yourself to more opportunities – including career opportunities!

Hassiba: That is a really good point about how all the skills that you use to build an audience and create content can actually also be used on your resume!

So my last question is actually not specifically to do with PM, but more because I am so interested that you are able to speak so many languages! Firstly, how did you learn all of the languages you are fluent in, and do you have any specific methods that you used in order to gain fluency?

Victoria: Ah thank you for that! So, I was kind of in an environment where it was pretty common to speak multiple languages. My school had a lot of exchange programs and when I was in school I went abroad three times while I was doing my undergrad, which was really cool. First of all, I started learning a language only if I really fell in love with how it sounds – so it’s pretty important to have some kind of motivation to learn it. I also always tried to immerse myself into the language, to really understand what the structure is, what the tone is like, and what are some of the cultural things that are important. And then another thing that was really helpful was that I was not afraid to speak. You can’t be afraid to put yourself out there because this is really how you are going to learn, by doing this you will get feedback really quickly (which is kind of a useful tip for PM too!). And I would also say that you need to always have a fresh attitude, like a beginner’s mindset when you learn a new language, it’s a great feeling to start out not knowing anything about a language and then be able to see progress over time.

Also, I think a useful thing to consider when learning a new language is what topics you actually want to be able to talk about that in that language. For example, do I need to talk about political science or do I just want to have a basic conversation about fashion or food, do I need to learn a specific grammar structure so early? So I think if you limit your scope a bit, it becomes way more manageable and then you will be able to communicate freely on topics that interest you. It is easier said than done but I do think limiting the scope and not being afraid to say the wrong thing both really help!

Hassiba: That is really great and practical advice actually – limiting your scope always helps to ease the stress I think. Try to take things one step at a time! So how do you keep fluent in all of those languages? Do you have to have conversations regularly to keep them in your mind?

Victoria: Well, that’s definitely a challenge – Mandarin specifically has been very difficult to keep up. I think the easiest way to do that is actually to watch TV or Netflix in that language, or even read news or listen to songs in the language. It is great to hear the language but I think it’s a lot more challenging to practice. I think speaking is probably the best way – but it’s hard if you’re not surrounded by speakers every day. I wish I knew the best answer to this question as it is something that I also find pretty difficult too!

Hassiba: Thank you so much, Victoria. You’ve been super interesting to talk to!

If you want to stay up to date with Victoria’s content, then follow her on LinkedIn for many more insights about Product Management!